Editor’s note: This article is a lightly edited transcript of a Sunday class teaching. The recording begins mid-sentence; the opening of the original talk was not captured. Spoken cadence — including asides, self-corrections, and class member questions — has been preserved deliberately. Mid-thought breaks are marked [interjection]. Class member contributions are flagged with attribution. Section headings have been added by the editor to aid navigation.

The Prophet’s Words in the Speaker’s Mouth

“You will listen, but be cold,” and “I’ve put my words in your mouth.” And Jeremiah, of course, was a prophet. And this is particularly the prophet’s mission, the prophet’s job, is it not?

And then verse 10: “See, I have set you this day over nations and over kingdoms.”

Speaking to Nations: A Conversation With Pablo

I remember talking to an Argentinian fellow who was going to Bible college at the time. With, [interjection] I can’t remember his name. Anyway, Pablo Andres — that was it. Pablo. So he was asking me about the Christian’s relation to the world, and they said, well, we should be like the prophets of old if we’re ministering the word, you know, and speak.

And the question is, to whom did the prophets of old speak? And by and large, they spoke to kings and rulers, and kings and rulers as representatives of the nations. And it’s not everybody’s job to speak to nations, to speak to representatives of nations, but it is particularly the modern-day prophet’s job to do that — to speak to national issues, to speak to the issues of the day that affect the kingdom.

Continuity With the Old Testament

And this isn’t a new thing. This is in continuity with the Old Testament. And we remember the words of Jesus, that he would stand before kings and governors for my name. Almost we have this being the job of the everyday believer to minister to kings, to minister to governors, to those in authority over nations.

So you should not think it a strange thing that we should be put in this position.

Why the West Is at Such a Low Ebb

And why are we in such a problem in the West today? Why are we so dechristianised? Why are we at such a low ebb at every turn? And is it not because the understanding of what a prophet is has changed — that the prophet should speak perhaps only to the individual, and only to the individual’s soul?

This is very important, because everything starts with the self-government of the Christian man. Everything starts with the heart. The heart is the seat of religion. You can’t bypass that. You must not bypass that.

But as we take God’s words in our mouth, and we speak them first of all to ourselves, to think right, to feel right, to respond correctly — to whether it be suffering or prosperity or whatever it may be — that doesn’t stop.

The Character of God’s People

Now again, it’s not everybody’s particular mission to speak to the nations, but I think it’s fair to say that it’s a character of God’s people that they do speak to the nations, particularly during times of persecution.

Okay. “See, I’ve said to you this day, over nations and over kingdoms.” And what is a character? As I said, it’s a lack of that ministry to the nations — [interjection] not a lack of this conception of what a prophetic ministry of the word is — that we should speak to the issues of the day. That has led to the dechristianisation. There’s been a withdrawal. People have said our job is not to speak to these national issues, our job is to speak, to preach the gospel — forgetting, of course, that the gospel in the Greek is the word evangelion, and evangelion is inseparable in the Greek from a word or a good news from a ruling authority.

The Kingdom and Rulership

The kingdom is bound up with that idea of rulership and so on, and we think of the words of the Great Commission in Matthew 28 verses 18 to 20. That talks about the ministry to the nations, discipling the nations, teaching them all things whatsoever I have commanded you. So the job of the church as a church — [interjection] it’s not all on our shoulders, but the job of the church, the ministry of the church, is a ministry to the nations. But it starts with the work of God coming into our own ears, going into our own hearts, as we pray it over, think it over, meditate it over, changing us, and eventually that must flow out.

Otherwise, if it’s all intake and no output, you suffer from some kind of spiritual constipation. But I’m half joking — but constipation can be a deadly, deadly thing.

Words Designed to Be Heard by the Nations

So “I have put my words in your mouth.” These words are not just to be heard by church people. These words are not designed just for church people. These words are designed to be heard by the nations.

Building Structure Brings Confidence

Previously you might be flailing about trying to understand what’s happening, which way is up. But when you, after a certain period of building, you realise actually I have a structure here. I have a structure of understanding in my mind. And I, [interjection] and I can, [interjection] things are still difficult, we’re still faced with trials, but I, I can build with confidence. And I can, I can live life with confidence.

So that was the first meditation, and we’re just going to break for a while there, and for any questions or comments, or if anybody wants to share another scripture, that would be fine too. But let’s just break for a while.

Virgil’s Contribution: Ephesians 4 and the Equipping of the Saints

Pastor Virgil (class member): Thanks for that, Nathan. You know, my message this morning is, probably runs parallel to what you’re saying now, and I was preaching from Ephesians chapter four on the laying down of our foundations with the apostles and the prophets, and how the preachers and the pastors are to take from that, and to teach the people, and nothing else. And it’s in chapter four verses 10 onwards, where it speaks of Christ, that he might fulfil all things, and that is everything — the glory of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea. And it speaks of equipping the saints for the ministry, and just revealing that these things were not only in the church, they go further than the institution of the church. They go into the wider world, as to say that when they leave the church, they equip for the, in whatever area God has put them in, the gifts that God has provided for them, to speak, to build up. And all this was — it’s interesting that it’s all built upon Christ, the body of Christ, the knowledge of the Son of God, and to the full status, and the measure, and the fullness of Christ — that it was him that must be known and understand. Hence why he will fulfil all things, and it’s at the beginning, it is him who descended and ascended to on high, that all things will be put under his feet. And therefore we are, as Christians, to fulfil that ministry, to speak it, to walk with it, to reveal it in our lifestyle, our conduct, and our behaviour, in fulfilling these things, that the world may come to know, and the gospel, and his kingdom to expand.

A Discouraging Sermon and a Pietist Christ

Yeah, it’s interesting what you’re saying. Yes — that’s right, that’s right.

We, [interjection] I, [interjection] we go to a little Presbyterian church. I was going to say a little one — it’s not so little, and it’s getting bigger, you know. And it’s interesting that the minister there, he very much exemplifies trying to equip within the framework that he has to, that Ephesians 4:30, equipping the saints for service. He leans heavily on the elders, and we have these small groups where people, for the first time in their lives, many of them are actually studying the scriptures for themselves. So it’s encouraging to have that, to have somebody that sees the importance of that.

But we were, [interjection] I was rather discouraged this morning, as he was opening up — as this minister in question was opening up the scriptures in 2nd Timothy 1, [interjection] 2nd, pardon me, 2nd Corinthians. And he’s a good man, he’s a righteous man. And, you know, it was a little bit disappointing, because you could see the structure of a rather restricted vision of the Christian life coming through.

A Roman Catholic Christ Still on the Cross

And I think it comes down to your idea of Christ’s ministry, and Christ himself, because we talk about the fellowship of his sufferings in that passage. But it seemed to be, [interjection] and we love the brother, and we talk to him, and we support him, and we, you know, we respect him, and we give him honour, and so on. But, [interjection] and we know it’s not a difficult problem, a task, and he’s going through a trial at the moment with a false accusation, so we want to love him, and we don’t want to in any way belittle him, a good man. But it seems to be that, [interjection] and I may be being unfair, that we have a picture of a Christ who’s rather like a Roman Catholic Christ, in that he’s still on the cross, and he’s still suffering.

Whereas when we refer to Christ’s sufferings, we know that Christ’s sufferings were very great, and very real, and they lasted almost his whole life. But his life is not, [interjection] was not, dominated by suffering. His life was dominated by a successful ministry — a ministry that was in all ways faithful, and a victory won over the world, and an overcoming of the world.

So it’s easy just to see the sufferings — and perhaps that’s what he did this morning, was just to see the sufferings, and our interpretation of that passage, and many other passages, hinge on, you know, what is the ministry of Christ. And it’s difficult. I mean, I could go on and on, because we did talk about this at the dinner table at length.

Pietism: Reserving Victory for the Next Life

But if people have a particular construct in their minds — for example, what you might call pietism — they, [interjection] it’s very, very difficult, if not impossible, for them to see victory, or to see strength. The tendency is to see only weakness in this world, and to reserve all victory and all strength for the next life.

Comfort, Strength, and the Paraclete

For example, the word “comfort” was used five times in the passage. And of course, in English, in his translation, and in English, “comfort” — the root of “comfort” is strength. Fort — or it’s the French for strong, fort. Comfort — strength with. And again, we have the ministry of the Holy Spirit, because the word used for comfort is something like parakaleō, from paraclete, who is the Holy Spirit who comes beside us.

So we can’t deny the sufferings of Christ, and we can’t deny that we ourselves will suffer in this world. But the note is important that we sound — we must sound a note of victory, because Christ, who suffered, suffered, but he didn’t suffer for the sake of suffering. He did not suffer in vain. He suffered in order to conquer.

So how we view Christ is — [interjection] and his ministry is so, so important. And how you view the Holy Spirit, and his ministry, is so, so important. Because the Holy Spirit, later on in that book, it talks about who raised Christ Jesus from the dead. So it’s not just an impartation of a feeling, it’s an impartation of strength in the midst of the most utmost suffering, the most difficult suffering imaginable.

So anyway, those were just a few thoughts from this morning.

Virgil on Maturity and Manhood in Ephesians

Pastor Virgil (class member): Because, I mean, in Ephesians, it mentions there that those who are in Christ — and it tells us to reach maturity and manhood — and yet the very next verse says, do not be swayed as children. It’s interesting that on the issue that when you are grounded, you mature. And ultimately what he is revealing is that in order to be swayed and tossed and waved around by all these doctrines, and human cunningness, and craftiness, and deceitfulness, is to be like a child. It is a sense of giving way, and not knowing the victory we have received in Christ. I mean, Paul’s first three chapters was all on, you have been saved, and you have been lifted out, you have been regenerated, you have been given every single heavenly blessing that can be constituted in humankind from a divine position. We have it. And I think you’re right in saying the church has — they don’t look that far. They still look at the struggle, instead of going the whole distance. Christ is at present in the seat of victory, and he has given us — we are seated with him. This is what Paul has pushed, and this is why this letter is saying to the Gentiles and the Jews, get over your problems, and put aside your differences, and know what you have received, that you can be united, be one, and have that common cause to go forward. But, again, it’s all in Christ. It’s with Christ that these things can only be accomplished. It’s interesting you talked about the DEI, the DI, because that is outside of that unity. It’s trying to get diversity in, which we cannot go forward when we are diverse with different thinking, but rather we are united with the same common thinking, in order to get unity.

Amen, brother. Amen.

Thank you. That’s wonderful. That’s wonderful.

The Master Deception: A Christ Still Nailed to the Cross

It is somewhat heartbreaking when you see what is, I think, a master deception, that it takes a part of the truth of God’s word — the sufferings of Christ, and the death of Christ — but it doesn’t go any further, as you say. Or it forgets about the rest.

Tiffany encourages me when I’m talking about this to think about the implications of this down the line. If you continue believing that in this way, how will you end up, you know? And consider the outcome of the thinking. If you ultimately, if you have a Christ who is still nailed to the cross — well, what can you do but pity him? You don’t have a victorious Christ. And you don’t have reason to hope in the world. And if we don’t think of the nations as being bought by Christ, then you’re going to despair of what’s happening in the nation.

Why We Rejoice

So if we are to overcome in the midst of sufferings, we are to understand and grasp why we should rejoice, you know — rationally, reasonably — why are we to rejoice? We’re to rejoice because Christ has won the victory over sin, and death, and hell. And Christ has claimed all the nations for us, for his own. And Christ has sent the Holy Spirit to empower us, even in the midst of what would be overwhelming suffering. And I’m sure John Michael and others here have known a tremendous amount of pressure, Leanka — tremendous amounts of pressure.

We can think of other people gathered here that have also, you know, are also experiencing that, and perhaps on a daily basis. And yet we can all rejoice knowing that it’s Christ that lives in us because of his finished work, because then he has been able to send the Holy Spirit together with the Father to be our comforter, our strengthener. So yes.

Class Member: Are the Powers That Be All-Powerful?

Class member: We just say that it’s that kind of thinking that makes people look at the powers that be and see them as all-powerful. I think that’s quite a common way of thinking. Well, it’s something that I’ve noticed, and I just wondered if even believers, a lot of believers, you know, they see the powers that be as all-powerful. Nothing happens except the powers that be allow it, sort of thing.

Right, right. Well, again, it comes down to, you know, what has Christ done on the cross? Is it just to secure us passage to heaven? Is that all he’s done? Well, if that is all he has done — and that’s often what it’s taught — then our only hope is escape. And, very unfortunate that a good man should have said this, you know, “The world is not our home, this is not our forever home, this life is going to be tough for God’s people.”

All of those things, in some ways, with qualification, you could argue are true. But the idea is that the world is essentially, belongs to Satan — belongs to itself, maybe — and it’s not a place for Christians. It’s a place for Christians to flee from. And it certainly feeds into the idea that if we don’t have, [interjection] if Christ is Lord in heaven only, then someone else has to be Lord here. And they have an idea of the sovereignty — [interjection] the conspiracy of the sovereignty — of Satan, essentially, on earth.

The Root That Needs Uprooting

And a proper understanding of Christ’s ministry would put that fear to bed. But it’s a root, it’s a root that needs uprooted, and it’s a root that’s very, very deep with people. And their identity is so bound up with it, sometimes that if you attack that, it’s as if you’re attacking them. The connection is so strong. And it’s like an edifice, it’s like a building that needs to be torn down, that’s reinforced, that has walls around it, and walls upon walls. So it is a real struggle.

And I’m sure that Virgil, as a pastor, can tell you many stories of people who are just very fixed in their thinking. And I don’t know — I’m just guessing, he hasn’t told me — but I’m guessing that’s what you find, that people are wedded to their ideas, their wrong ideas of who God is. But if we think of it as a root that needs rooting up, or a building that needs breaking down, then that should encourage us to think, well, let’s take a blow at it, let’s take another blow at it, in faith that the Word of God is sufficient to knock those buildings down in time, and to uproot those false ideas.

Virgil: The Devil Has Been Conquered

Pastor Virgil (class member): I think it does enter many people’s minds that Satan does have a lot of power. And they do — I mean, it’s almost like you’ve got God on one hand, and you’ve got Satan on one side, and they’re always combating each other, and wrestling for power. And a lot of people think like that. And they think we are in the world, and we’re fighting this evil battle, but they don’t realise — I mean, from Genesis 3 — that Christ conquered in his death and resurrection. He put an end. I mean, it mentions it a few times even, that judgement has come, and the powers of this world have been judged. I mean, the book of Revelation — again, I think it’s your understanding of Revelation. If it’s still to come, that the devil’s going to arise, and revel everything, that is also that understanding. Whereas if we know that it has happened, you see, and he has been conquered. I think this issue — we Christians have been given everything. I mean, Paul, continually through the epistles, he’s exhorting Christians to rise up above it. He’s telling them, you have the right to overcome these doctrines of circumcisions, and angels, you have the ability to overcome your Jewish traditions that are not of Christ, you have the power to go above them. And these are all the spiritual aspects, and the devil himself. I mean, the Bible, when it talks about we are more than conquerors — we’re not just conquerors, we’re more than. Or when it talks about that the kingdoms of this earth cannot prevail against, or the gates of hell cannot prevail against the church — I mean, these are all sayings of the fact that the devil’s lost. He’s not there anymore. And I think you’re right, Nathan, there are a lot of people in church — and this is one of the things that I battle with in my church — are people that have built this theology within themselves. And it is deeply rooted, and hence, you’ve got to be gentle with it. Especially the ladies that are there, because they — I mean, I’ve had them get up and walk straight out my sermon before, and then it takes weeks before they come back again. And so in order to gently see these things, you can’t sometimes hammer it hard. You’ve got to gently, like in the sense of pluck out — you’ve got to gently destroy this evil philosophy that is giving Satan power that he doesn’t have.

Amen. Thank you. So good to have you on the call, Virgil. Providential.

A Blasphemous 1970s Song

I recall a very evil blasphemous song from back in the 70s. I think the singer, the author — whatever — was Christopher or something. [The reference may be to Chris de Burgh’s “Spanish Train”.]

And he had a song with the devil and God where — not so careful speech, I don’t know — playing cards on a train as to who got the soul of the dying person. And Christopher sings it in such a way that, you know, God is a lovely guy. The devil is very, very clever, and everything. And the devil keeps jimmying the cards so that God can’t win. And it doesn’t matter how good and nice God is, he can’t win, because the devil is the king of the world, and he jimmies the cards so that he always wins everything.

And I do think, obviously, that that author probably had a whole bunch of Christian background. And I think there’s a lot of that view in the church — that Satan is the owner of this world. And actually, you know, God can pluck a few people out, but that’s all. His launch of the kingship and sovereignty is not seen by a large portion of the church, even though they are Christians.

Christopher was from Northern Ireland. I’ll just — so apologies for that.

Class member: Yeah. A very popular song when I was a little child.

Isn’t it incredible how you remember things? Well, those songs are powerful, aren’t they? They’re powerful. I’m thinking of two or three songs that he sung. They’re very, very powerful.

Chipping Away at God’s Words

And it’s one of those — it’s just, they’re chipping away. The world is chipping away at our minds through adverts, through memes, through chipping away and saying, don’t speak God’s words. They don’t belong here. They’re not effective. They’re not powerful. Chip, chip, chip, chip, chip, chip, chip.

And he’ll do anything, and Satan’s soldiers will do anything, to stop you from first of all studying God’s words, but then speaking them first of all to yourself, and then speaking them out. And that’s one of the reasons why I love this guy, Myron Golden, who takes God’s words and uses them for business and marketing and so on. And it’s never a shame to speak God’s words. It’s truly, truly remarkable.

Turning to Deuteronomy 15 — The Year of Release

All right. Well, I was going to point out a few things in Deuteronomy 15 as well. I don’t know how relevant they are, but let’s look at Deuteronomy 15 verse 7 — [interjection] 7 to, let’s see how far we get.

Okay. So this is talking about the Jubilee year, or the Sabbath year, even. And where to start, where to start. Okay, let’s start just from verse one there.

Okay. 15 verse 1. “At the end of every seven years, you shall grant a release.” Okay. And literally the idea is just like those machines at the arcade and the thing drops a release. And this is the manner of the release.

A Crisscross Network of Christian Lenders

Isn’t that very interesting? Do we think of banking, lending, borrowing? Do we think of that in Christian terms as a Christian — [interjection] Judaic? Well, perhaps we should. I’m sure we think of Jews banking — but why should the Jews have all the good bankers?

But imagine this crisscross network of savvy, competent Christians being able to lend to one another. But there will be no — [interjection] but what’s the promise? There’s always a promise here. God always says, if you do this, this is the incentive.

What is the incentive here? If we’re willing to lend to our poor brother, maybe to start a business, whatever it happens to be — what’s the promise? If we lend the unbeliever and lend and lend and lend — what’s the promise? What’s the promise if we let that debt go periodically?

”There Will Be No Poor Among You”

I don’t know how to work this out in modern day terms. I don’t. But what’s the promise that God offers? There will be no poor among you. Wow. God’s promises are amazing. We inherit, we are an inheritor of the promises of Abraham. And this is tremendous.

There will be no poor among you. Imagine no poor Christians. No Christians who are struggling to gather money together for this or that or the other thing. What a promise.

What a high standard, though — that we’d be a provident people, known to be providence; that we’d be a productive people that can build up wealth; that are competent enough to judge character and so on. We have to change as a people. It’s something to aim for, isn’t it? In our own lives, in the lives of our children, our children’s children.

But the promise is spectacular. There will be no poor among you.

How Does the World Solve Poverty?

How do we serve, [interjection] how do we try to solve poverty in today’s world? There’s a question for you. How do we do it?

Class member: It’s the government.

Go ahead. Please. So it’s the state that does it through coercion. And you take from the productive and you give to the indolent. But God’s system has a guarantee with it. Wow. That it’s families lending to other families.

I’m just saying that’s the scripture — just saying, it’s families lending to unbelievers as well. We oftentimes — we’re talking about conspiracy and evil powers ruling the world and so on. The Rothschild name comes up, doesn’t it? What is the role of the Rothschilds but a family who lends money? We criticise them and say, look at them, they’re terrible — they successfully lent money. Well, shouldn’t we as Christians look at ourselves and say, well, why aren’t there more Christian bankers? Why aren’t there more Christians aspiring to be bankers, with a passage like this?

It’s not for everybody. We need farmers, we need pastors, we need teachers. But what about the bankers? Let’s give God the glory. Let’s eliminate poverty. But I think the idea is a patchwork.

Lending to Many Nations

“For the Lord will bless you in the land that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance to possess. If only you will strictly obey the voice of the Lord your God, being careful to do all this commandment that I command you today. For the Lord your God will bless you as he promised you, and you shall lend to many nations.”

So again, we have the nation emerging, don’t we? And the Bank of England, City of London — it lends to many nations. Isn’t it a shame that the people of God aren’t lending to many nations? I think it’s a shame.

“But you shall not borrow, and you shall rule over many nations, but they shall not rule over you.”

So if we want to exalt Christian culture, if we want to deal with poverty, we can criticise — and we should criticise — the central government for stealing from the productive and giving to the indolent, the idle, the wicked. But let’s consider also how we might embody in our own lives on a small scale. And I suspect the Beyonds in Africa will have lots more opportunity than we would to lend to people. But let’s think about how we might encourage, do that on a personal basis.

I know that in Moulton, Alabama, there’s a little bit of this goes on in terms of lending.

Class Member: The Seven-Year Mindset of a Banker

Class member: Nathan, before we get to the application, I’m just thinking now of what you’ve said here. Just trying to understand it. If I was a banker in those days and I was given six years in order to get my returns from it — I’m just thinking now, would there be a mindset that a banker would only lend for seven years, as in to make sure that his money is all paid in? I’m thinking of God’s reward. Or is it that the banker wouldn’t think that far, or thinking God’s blessing would indiscriminately give out the money and then lose how much is left over? Is that loss what God’s looking at as a reward? That money that the banker would lose after six years. Is that what God is rewarding? Or is he just rewarding the sake of you giving for the sake of the poor? Is it the loss, or the fact you’ve given it?

Well, I don’t particularly know. But I know what God rewards is obedience to the every word of God. So we have to say broadly speaking, obedience. But I think it’s a big-heartedness, which says, well, this chap is in need. I will lose money in this, but I’m going to lend anyway.

Isn’t it very strange that the world would say give? And giving is good, of course. But we would never think of lending as an act of charity that would be rewarded by God. Isn’t that funny? I need to do more thinking about how we can.

Micro-Loans and Samaritan Strategy

Yeah, I have a book on my shelf there — Samaritan Strategy somewhere. Samaritan Strategy — and he talks about micro-loans, and how micro-loans in developing countries has been able to see tremendous rates of return on those loans, small amounts, $500, $1,000, to businesses to expand, like a hot dog cart or something like that. And they’re an example of an organisation that’s taken — or a person that’s taken — that principle of lending as Christian charity and run with it. But perhaps there’s something we can do to apply that to our own lives.

Class Member: A Personal Story of Lending Lost

Class member: Just as an example, I twice in the past have lent money to people. This was a long, long time ago. And it wasn’t huge amounts of money. And it felt like a lot at the time, because I wasn’t earning much. And both times, I never got the money back. And one of them I found out later, she had a habit of borrowing money from people and not returning it. But the other person — basically, I was too embarrassed to ask for the money back. You know, I didn’t put any pressure on her ever at any time. Was that remiss of me? I mean, should I have made an effort to make a payment plan, or do you know what I mean? I’m going to say it kind of — well, from my perspective, it kind of broke the relationship. And I don’t want to go into exactly my own thought process because it’s not relevant. But, you know, should I have been wiser? Well, yes, I should have been wiser, but I don’t exactly know what I could have done differently, I suppose is what I’m saying.

Well, I actually have lent money when I didn’t have money. I’ve, [interjection] I sold stuff and they said, “I’m going to pay you later for this.” And they didn’t, and they called up with a lot of tears and so on. But I suppose when we do — when we start to do some of what God demands of us — we learn a lesson, that’s for sure, you know. We learn a lesson about human nature.

”When Your Brother”: A Knowledge of God’s Law Presupposed

But I think the key word here is “when your brother”, okay — “creditor to his neighbour”. I think the — [interjection] well, what I mean when I say that is this — that this is to be one of God’s people who are of a knowledge of God’s law. The problem is that people don’t have a knowledge of God’s law. They don’t have a knowledge of the structure of God’s ethics. It’s just what’s expected of people as you go to church and you smile at people, I think for a lot of people. And you don’t commit adultery, probably. I think that’s basically the limit of people’s Christianity and understanding of it.

And that’s a challenge to develop a Christian culture. This is the frustration which Stephen Perks has had — that, you know, it’s just difficult to do things when people simply don’t understand the basics. So I think that’s a challenge for the Levites, you know, for the people who are teaching God’s word, to develop a distinctly Christian culture. That’s a challenge for the prophets to root out this worldly thinking, to pull it out, to break it down, and to start planting and building, that in the future we might be equipped to do that.

There’s so much that we want to do as Christians, I’m sure, but are rather frustrated from our own lack of understanding and obedience, and a lack of understanding and obedience of others. So this really rests upon, is premised upon, a nation that understands what’s what.

The Amish as a Limited Example

And we do have examples of the Amish, for instance. I don’t know anything about them lending, but they have a knowledge and awareness of themselves as a community, and they do help each other. And whereas the church just doesn’t have that at this stage, I don’t think in any real meaningful sense.

So that’s what we need to build up on ourselves — is an understanding of us as a distinct community, your brother, as opposed to the worldling, on the one hand. And build up a knowledge of that structure, to build that structure within ourselves, which puts borders around our behaviour and structures us in such a way that we can bear the load of taking a loan, making a loan, you know. And that structure will take time to develop, but will allow us to do things, to build things, that at the moment is just very difficult.

Verses 7–11: The Heart That Will Not Harden

Okay, let me just finish off with this. Okay, I’m sorry to go over time here.

In light of what you just said there.

“So if among you, one of your brothers should become poor in any of your towns within your land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother, but shall open your hand to him and lend him sufficient for his need, whatever it may be. Take care lest there be an unworthy thought in your heart, that you say, ‘The seventh year, the year of the release, is near,’ and your eye look grudgingly on your poor brother, and you give him nothing, and he cry to the Lord against you, and you be guilty of sin. You shall give to him freely, and your heart shall not be grudging when you give to him, because for this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work, and in all that you undertake.”

I haven’t seen a promise like that since Psalm 1, where there will never cease to be poor.

Okay, so what you did in lending there, in some measure, has been blessed of God, I’m sure. However halting or faltering our obedience is, I believe that God reserves a blessing for it.

Class Member: Is the Return the Point, or the Giving?

Class member: So is the issue of lending and giving to your brother and not necessarily the return of it — those last words that you read there of grudgingly not giving, knowing that the seven years is nearly over, so there is no return. So ultimately it should not concern you, the returns of them. The issue is ultimately — well, the return is good, obviously as a Christian you should give, but I’m talking about the lender. Should at all times lend.

I don’t think that is the case, because the people who — [interjection] I would qualify what I’ve just read by saying this — that people need to be your brother effectively, not just, well, not just a pretend Christian. But there’s so many people whose souls are going to heaven when they die, they die, but their minds — they might be going somewhere else, I don’t know. They just are so, [interjection] have such a poor — [interjection] their lives are so unstructured by the word of God. So I think it is foolish to give to someone who has a history of being a liar. I think that would be foolish. But if we didn’t know they were a liar, well, that’s a different matter entirely.

So it’s never one — we can’t just take, we always have to bring multiple scriptures in to interpret any moral question. But there’s been — [interjection] he’s known a profit from people that lent — [interjection] that borrowed from him in year one, year two, year three, year four, year five. So people have been bringing the money back, bringing the money back, bringing the money back. It may be a charity loan, it may be a loan for profit, both are possible. But he’s not to stop if there’s a need. He’s not to stop on the seventh year. If that need is there, I think that’s the idea.

Dave Ramsey vs. Scripture

So there’s a command to lend. I just want to raise that for your thinking, for your thought, your consideration. I mean, Dave Ramsey has a thing about — obviously his thing is don’t be in debt ever — but he says don’t lend money to family, don’t borrow money from family, which would seem perhaps to contradict this. I don’t mean to mention families. I think it’s wise advice, because this is an era in which people are lawless and despise the law of God and do not live in terms of it at all — even and perhaps especially sometimes Christians.

So we’re not to be fools, but in the context of a godly society, we are to lend. And I suspect as the society hits the skids and as we’re rebuilding, it’ll become very common and very necessary to lend. And I believe, from what I understand, that interest rates will be readjusted upwards by a considerable margin at some point. So it could be very profitable to lend. But it requires so much of us as an individual to lend.

The Presupposition: A People Capable of Wise Judgement

It’s not something that you can do willy-nilly. That’s part of what I’m saying — is that we have to be, especially if we’re lending to the world, we have to be such an understanding, and a wise, and a capable people. So what I’m saying is, this presupposes that you’re capable, you’ve set money aside, you can judge people, you’ve some means of getting the money back. There’s so much.

And what I’m saying is that what’s presumed is as shocking and as important as the promise that says there will not be poor among you. So I think it’s something to grow towards. But it’s a tricky business. It’s a difficult business.

Class Member: Bank Managers vs. Algorithms

Class member: So about what you were saying last week, about 40 years ago, when people borrowed money from a bank, they met with a bank manager who sized them up and sized up their character and lent based on his understanding of the person’s character. And now it’s all done by algorithms. So, and I can’t help thinking that that lost wisdom is another reason why we’re in such a mess. You know, the idea that algorithms can decide who can borrow money at what rate for how long versus a man who is well practised in reading somebody’s character and then saying, yeah, we can trust this person so we can lend them money.

Right. Well, I mean, I think we may be looking at a recapitulation of what happened at the end of the Soviet Union — a time of no regulations. And it’ll be a very hairy time where you’ll have to judge people’s character. And what you find in Africa is that there’s no intermediary institutions when you’re dealing with people. You have to deal with people face to face and judge their character. And sometimes you have to work with people who are just not that trustworthy. So in a context like this, this is much more relevant, I think, and much more alive as an idea.

The Standard God Sets

But I think the standard that God is setting for us as a people is that we be a wise people, a capable people, a provident people, and a generous people. Which is — I’m certainly not there, but I see the call of God to improve myself in those areas, and certainly to teach it. And the promise is just outstanding and amazing, that there should be no [poor] among you.

Closing

All right, folks, I don’t want to keep you up. I’m sorry for keeping you longer. I don’t want to chew you away either. If you want to reach out, just continue to chat there. But it’s a blessing.

I’m sorry I wasn’t more prepared. We’ll rectify that next week. It was really nice to see Virgil and to have him bring the word as well. And that was an encouragement. And it’s lovely to see you. And does somebody want to pray us out? Thank you very much.

Closing Prayer

Holy Father, we thank you for your word that you, [interjection] to give us instructions that are full of life. These instructions that are so full of promise and hope, and so full of hope in this world — not just some sort of pie in the sky by and by. We thank you for your goodness, that you have given us these words, that you have cared for us. And we thank you that you have called out a people for yourself to build your kingdom, and that you have done this and continue to build your kingdom through the sending of the Holy Spirit. We thank you that this is victorious, that from generation to generation it grows. Lord, as we live in tricky days, days when we are confused sometimes as to decisions or course of action — please speak to us from your word. May your words be in our minds and in our hearts, and work out into our hands practically. We’ll be able to think things through from the foundation of your word, from the foundation of your Lord. We thank you for the great lawgiver. We observe him faithfully. Aid us in this week, we pray. Help us. Thank you for everybody on the group now. We ask your blessing on all and your aid for them in this week. In Jesus’ name. Amen.

After-Call Banter

Well, don’t let me show you away there, folks. I’m going to get a drink here, but if you want to continue chatting, feel free, you know. It’s reverse charges. So, you know, granny’s pen.

Josh Michael (class member): Hi all. Sorry to have only joined now at the end.

Okay, I couldn’t hear anyone else for a few minutes either. Oh, sorry. I was concentrating on getting a beverage which appeared in my cup as if by magic. So, I did hear you, I did hear you. It’s good to see you, Josh. Yeah — or Josh Michael, as you are on my phone. Where’s my phone? Oh, wow. So, let me see here. How are things going? Never mind. Oh, we can’t read. We need to put glasses on if we’re going to read that from here. Never mind. How are things in Northern Ireland?

Class member: It’s snowy, cold, but grand.

How can that be grand? Well, I kept it between the hedges, so it’s grand. Uncle Virgil, that’s a grand view you have behind you there.

Pastor Virgil (class member): I was actually thinking, when you guys were all talking, I’m halfway up to heaven already. Yeah, no, it’s — if you actually see what’s behind me, my office is in a bit of a mess at the moment. With Christmas having just come and the hall being used so much that my office is packed up. I’m like sandwiched between boxes.

We just thought that Elon Musk had already got Stalin and got Mars. To see America behind me.

Josh Michael (class member): Well, I’d really ask you to pray about our immigration statuses this week, please. Just — yeah, our applications are in. And yeah, that we should find favour, that there should be no difficulties. I’d be grateful for that. Thank you.

And how are things up in Glasgow?

Class member (Glasgow): Yeah, things are good here. No snow, which is great, although it’s cold. It’s been very sunny. I know that’s hard to believe, but that is the truth. Yeah, things are good. Yeah, I’m getting to know people at church, which is nice. But it’s, you know, just a lot of what Nathan was saying today, that people don’t really know their Bibles. They don’t really, you know, it’s very surface. Don’t get me wrong, they’re lovely, lovely, lovely people. Very warm and open and they’ve really, really welcomed me in. And yeah, yeah.

And boys in a caravan?

Class member: It’s cold, but pleasant. It’s been, yeah, nice and sunny, but everything’s frozen, which is, gives us a bit more work, but yeah. Just having to go out and water cattle all over the place. Which takes a long time. I mean, today has been just about a full day for me. Yeah, disappointing, but yeah.

Faces are looking very pale. Probably just the light in here. Have you seen your sisters? They look very pale from here as well.

Class member: As you can see, it’s quite cold here as well. It’s probably about mid-twenties.

Yeah, similar to here, Josh. In Fahrenheit. It’s been minus five here for the last few days, most of the time.

Yeah, yeah. I can definitely stick with this. I actually quite enjoy this, I must say. It is nice. It’s cold, but you don’t need to wear gloves or anything. It’s pleasant.

Class member: Looks like it’s 22 degrees here and we’ve got a big storm rolling in right now.

What says your mosquitoes, Nathan? They’re in Rippon. We aren’t cursed with those things. Interesting. Because you lost that one that was part of my year. That makes it very easy. Mine are bigger than yours. Well, St Patrick drove all the snakes out of Ireland, so you went into the snake front too. Don’t mind, Josh.

Josh Michael (class member): Well, Josh will tell you it’s not been an easy time here. But Lord willing, the crops will grow and there’ll be a harvest. Yeah. Yeah. Are the rains still on? Yeah, actually, funny enough, I’m going to say gratefully. We had a big thunderstorm, but a small amount of rain last night. We had eight millimetres. Okay. The beauty is, that will just keep the surface nice and moist for the seed that’s coming through. It won’t cap off and go hard. Right, that’s a blessing. 60 mils one day. 70 mils in one day. 70, that just was walking away. So, yeah, that little bit was just such a blessing.

Yeah. Well, we loved seeing your photographs. Josh sent some lovely photographs where I was showing that to my former brother-in-law and his son this morning in church. And he was saying, oh, it’s a John Deere, another John Deere, another John Deere. Oh, no. So, uh.

Yeah. Unfortunately. The most expensive paint in the world. It’s getting to the point where nobody wants them in this country. Well. I think it’s getting to the same point here. Shockingly poor service and price. Is it a, was it a Chinese brand? How much more expensive did you say the equivalent, uh, was it Chinese or Korean brand was? Or cheaper it was? The Rolls-Royce Chinese.